This is Exactly What’s Wrong with Nutrition Today…

there's a lot of problems with the nutrition Community today for one we fight over everything two these fights end up leading to paralysis and people not knowing what decision they should be making and what they should be doing with their diet Alan Aragon and I come from different schools of thought six seven years ago you could probably say we hated each other on the internet right we didn't really know each other but it was a short-lived stent of hating each other and we figured this video is a solid one to make surrounding what is wrong with the nutrition Community today I'm a low carb Advocate he's arguably more of a I don't know I guess I could call you somewhat of a flexible dieting Advocate I guess so on the outside we look like two totally different people but our common theme and what we want to do with people is the same but Alan can you introduce yourself and then we'll dive into this I popped the link down below for a company called House of macadamia if you want to try 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that I know of that's on the mark it and you're getting one completely free if you just use that link down below there's no catches it's just to get the word out there well I'm one of the science guys uh one of the stereotypical PubMed Warriors but I don't know I guess the difference is uh my colleagues and I we we do the research we do the science and we try to communicate out to hopefully crystallize usable Public Health messages so that's kind of my my role I would think in the community now in a nutshell um you know you were sort of the The Godfather in a way of the flexible dieting world I mean you kind of like I say that with like back in the Heyday you were kind of uh like you had a group of this flexible dieting and it was like and you mentioned something to me where you said you almost created a bunch of monsters and I sometimes I feel the same way about content that I put out six seven years ago or maybe I was a tad too dogmatic in my way of thinking and it might have created some monsters out of that um but you know that's that's not really what the problem is that we see with nutrition today I think nowadays like information is everywhere but if me being someone that comes from a low carb side of things and let's just pretend let's just say you're a high carb side of things you know it's not necessarily the case we end up with this friction that ultimately puts us in deadlock and nobody wins and I mean what are you seeing today I think this is going to be an interesting discussion I think that we you know we're realizing that everybody is just trying to achieve the same thing better health better Fitness um better longevity you know better quality of life and better lifespan and health span and um we're all striving to achieve the same thing and help our audiences achieve the same thing and the thing that that people rarely acknowledge is that we don't know everything there is a vast expanse of gray area now we just don't have definitive knowledge of I mean we've we've got enough of the fundamentals down to be able to get these results but a lot of times it's these sort of Fringe ideas that we we battle over um like way back in the bodybuilding.com days I would argue with various guys over uh Branch chain amino acid supplementation when we're just arguing for days over something that might make a tiny fraction of difference over the course of somebody's entire training career you know um and so like with the If It Fits your Macros thing I mean that that started as a way to tell people that yeah man you can have whole eggs just be aware of how the egg yolk contributes to your your daily fat allotment and so what happened from that is people took the if it fit Fits your Macros acronym and they turned it into how much junk food can I fit in my diet and still hit my macros and then just kind of brag about it and so the the idea of food selection matters diet quality matters not just for health but for body composition because if you're taking down a bunch of foods that don't satiate you then you're not going to be able to sustain this net caloric deficit that we're striving for for fat loss and so on and so though that those pieces of nuance got lost in the whole flexible dieting thing where people can think that carb Source doesn't matter at all just hit that carb number as long as you hit the fat number and the protein number you're good and that's never been accurate and that's never been the message that any of us at the I guess at the top of the pyramid wanted to propagate yeah and from the keto side it's actually the same kind of discussion it just becomes this oh as long as you don't Spike insulin it's fine right that's not the case either right it's like we're not we're not trying to say in the low carb Community oh well it doesn't have carbs so it's fair game you can eat as much of it as you want oh it doesn't matter if the fact that like you know fat quality doesn't matter you know okay we don't care about monounsaturated fats we don't care about polyunsaturated fats we don't care about membrane fluidity we don't care we don't we don't care it's just I know that stuff still matters right we have to have Nuance to this discussion but as someone that was talking keto low carb really early on I recognize that too I say okay well wait a minute some of this information that I put out ends up getting it's like a game of telephone next thing you know it's like well okay as long as there's no carbs in it it's totally good to go and next thing you know you end up with Hyper palatable low carb BS that just makes you just eat twice as much but hey by the way there's also double the caloric density in these low carb junk foods and then people start gaining weight or they stop losing weight and then you end up oh a low carb doesn't work so then you end up just by contrast creating enemies right and at the end of the day you and I discussed a little bit you being in the researcher world or being in the research world and being a researcher you're not a [ __ ] it's not like you can't see that there's good low carb research out there yeah and me being in the low carb Community I'm not a [ __ ] and I can see that there's good high carb research out there so just because we sit on different sides of maybe what we spend our time looking at so it doesn't mean that there's not thoughtful acknowledgment to each side and like now with social media it's just getting so much more intense because there's also everything needs to be sensationalized so everything needs to become like just intense and a serious fight right yeah everything needs to be boiled down to a 30 second 15 second clip right whether it's on Tick Tock or whether it's on YouTube shorts or whatever it is and the important details go missing like for example a lot of folks rip on the the Kiko camp or the Seco campus some people say it well folks in in the the research Community for example um we see calories and hormones influencing each other and being Inseparable from each other especially the states of energy balance as they relate to the satiety hormones and the hunger hormones they are just a symphony in lockstep it's almost like a seesaw you can't separate them so when somebody says yeah the kiko folks don't they know that it's all about hormones well not really Matt it's about both we have to consider this sort of bi-directional relationship of calories and hormones and how that influences health and body composition so the thing is you can't get that across you know in these internet arguments and these short clips where people are just figuring they're in these different camps and they're ready to just you know throw the weapons out whenever whenever they get the opportunity and so I think it's a lot better to as you mentioned just kind of be open-minded and know that we don't neither side knows everything and everybody can learn from what other people are investigating and succeeding on I mean an extreme case right is is the carnivore community to think it's the most ridiculous thing in the world right but a lot of people are getting a lot of great results by eliminating a lot of certain foods um and I think it's an interesting study I still I'm not pro plant free diet I you know it would take a lot of evidence for me to be able to like co-sign that but what I've come to find out from just kind of observing the carnivore community these folks are are investigating carnivore dieting for health reasons it's not to freaking get the last row of ABS it's not to get that you know that perfect look for the club or whatever they're suffering from various symptoms and intolerances that they're just trying to figure out what the heck am I getting triggered by over here and when when you realize that these people are approaching it from from a finding out what on Earth is wrong with my health perspective then you can kind of empathize with the fact that okay so they're dropping all they're trading a standard Western diet for like an all all meat diet all animal-based diet and they're trying to figure out their health honestly I I'm fine with that I'm fine with that what I'm not necessarily fine with is some of the more extreme Fringe factions that say or claim that this is the optimal way for everybody to eat so yeah I know that was a little bit of a no no a bit of a tangent that's dead on because it happens on obviously both sides right it's um there's the the plant-based community that preaches what they preach there's the carnivore community that preaches what they preach the keto Community can be the same way the you know Seco crowd can be the same way and it's like again it's like a game of telephone it starts like what we see at the top and unfortunately with carnivore there's just not a lot of legit bodies of research to back any of this up and I I'm in agreement with you that I feel like it's not necessarily the additive effect of adding these animal foods and it's more so the elimination effect of probably a lot of the garbage that was being consumed before keto leaves you too open sometimes so you've got carnivore versus keto keto leaves a lot of doors open for people to still be making really bad mistakes like they could still be eating a bunch of garbage on keto so they think keto didn't work for me carnivore worked for me it must just be I need more Animal product well maybe you needed more Animal product in lieu of whatever other crap you were eating and that goes for any kind of dietary structure whatsoever and you know when you can take little bits and pieces from each thing I have learned things from the carnivore community that have actually taught me decent amounts I I learned things about organ meats that I found quite interesting from a nutritional value standpoint I've learned things from If It Fits your Macros I have learned things about thermodynamics that seven years ago I wasn't wasn't willing to listen to okay and people in your Camp have looked at things from keto even like Lane Norton you know he's he's come around on keto quite a bit right and I think a lot of that is just hey like if it works for you it works for you and to your point there's so much that we just don't know and it's okay with resigning to the fact that you know we don't have to have an answer for everything something like keto seems to work really well for Jimmy keto doesn't really work well for Bob does that mean that Bob should come at Jimmy with an ice ax no like aren't we both trying to get to the same point here yep yep and that brings me to the point that let's let's individualize the approach to not just macronutrition but let's individualize the degree of uh non-linearity of dieting across the course of the week in terms of uh either carbohydrate amounts or just calories period like some people are just fine on daily caloric restriction other folks are they do much better with fasting periods through the course of a week and how well you do on that stuff is really going to come down to personal preference and and also goals are going to be going to come into play as well so like athletes and people with significant endurance demand they obviously are going to have to structure their fasting or low calorie phases according to their training demands um but uh and and that can also go with carbohydrate as well but the thing that's been interesting is like the march of research on intermittent fasting and you know in all of its variants whether it be the alternate day fasting or um the twice a week fasting or time restricted feeding that body of research has played out in such a way that it's removed a lot of these these apprehensions that the the fitness crowd had or the fitness slash bro slash bodybuilding crowd had about not going more than like three or four hours without eating a meal because there is this fear that oh okay we gotta stoke the metabolic fire with small frequent meals and if you just have a couple meals a day your muscles will fall off the bone and um it's just the way the research beared out for intermittent fasting has been actually very favorable and has put it on a Level Playing Field with daily caloric restriction in terms of terms of weight loss in terms of fat loss uh muscle gain you know there's there's limits to like Elite level muscle gain that you can achieve with certain you know certain phases of fasting that could compromise muscle gain but typically with a general population you have a wide margin of uh a wide margin of fasting variants and fasting strategies that will still preserve muscle mass as long as you're resistance training so everything from the alternate day fasting to the time restricted feeding models if resistance training is in place if protein is in place then there isn't this major threat of catabolizing down to nothing like we thought like we assumed like 10 years ago before the research just started piling up yeah it's happened fast and that's the thing is like people think oh well Thomas like you know seven eight years ago like did you believe this I mean not necessarily like that's the thing like things sometimes move very fast and like sometimes research moves slow like in the bureaucratic sense of what we might see in terms of you know people like how is the food guide pyramid still a thing well the food guide pyramid's still a thing because that is a bureaucratic Beast that needs to be conquered that is light years behind where research is and that's a completely different story okay but the food Compass just hit the yeah hit the news when Joe Rogan blew up that post from good ranchers oh my gosh yeah no it's wild right and it's when we look at just what is happening like we don't need to be constantly stoking this metabolic fire this piece like I've I've always responded very well being able to have a period of time where I'm not eating in a period of time where I am eating for me and hopefully this gives some like hope and motivation to people that it's okay to say hey you know what this is going to be a day where I just don't eat that much or I fast rather aggressively and tomorrow is going to be a day where I eat more of a surplus that was for me especially with like when losing weight that was easy for me because I could put myself in a box the day that I was fasting and then have a little bit of a meal and really probably only consume realistically less than like a thousand calories that day that's just the way it played out and then the next day I would just eat at Liberty I would just eat how I wanted to eat and naturally I actually didn't eat all that much and the weight just fell off of that doing like this alternate day fasting approach and it's kind of funny like you see in this whole community of like yeah as long as resistance training is there as long as the muscle stimulus and this is another thing that's relatively new is like the stimulus seems to be obviously the protein too but stimulus is really like the most important thing I talked about with fasting if you're going to fast it see it makes logical sense now that we think about it that from a preferential standpoint if you're using muscle the body is going to deem that as necessary and it's going to probably hold on to it if you're not using that muscle and you're fasted the body's gonna be like well this guy's starving what the heck is this stuff good for start breaking it down sure you know so it's I've always been someone that's trained through fasting which had that been mindset 10 years ago I would have thought this like linear mechanical approach of I'm fasting and I'm physically breaking down muscle as I'm working out whereas actually now I think a bit less mechanically and more metabolic like oh this is a stimulus to keep this muscle on me yeah yeah there's there's interesting research all in that area and it's just really gained a lot of momentum lately and I actually I was the lead author of a recent review paper on intermittent fasting and its effects on body composition so I can appreciate all the all these new findings and you know I can say Hey you know I was wrong about uh intermittent fasting when it just sort of first broke out onto the scene yeah well that's probably simply again it's a perfect example of you you know being so heavy in the fitness community that probably I don't want to say clouded judgment that's not the wrong word that's not the right word but it almost makes you sit in this box of like okay well Fitness Community is all about like you know keeping the muscle keeping the muscle keeping muscle so when you first look at intermittent fasting and you're looking at that it's like oh wait a minute this is terrible there's no way in heck this can be good you know but it's going to take a decade of research to really understand that it was it was difficult for me too as a matter of fact when I went through you know I lost a lot of weight with intermittent fasting and then I'm like okay well I need to put muscle on so I need to like probably just go away from that eat more you know four or five meals a day kind of thing and there was like no no difference and I wasn't even looking at research at that point it was just I didn't notice a difference yeah and so I knew deep in my mind like wait a minute this isn't really doing much different eating four or five meals per day than it was when I was intermittent fasting but that being said you know if we come back to what happens on social media and everyone kind of has to be everyone wants to be an expert now too right sure and I know that I'm guilty of you know I don't have a PhD behind my name right but I'm decent at articulating the information and I consider myself an expert just by the sheer amount of hours I have put into this right what's the old saying every 10 000 hours and something you're considered an expert I'm well welcome Gladwell yeah I have what's much more than 10 000 hours in this now so I'm an honorary expert I suppose nice but now with but I still don't consider myself a scientist I don't I don't pretend to be one the reason I mention this is you know you've been here a long time been doing this a long time you've seen many iterations of social media kind of come through you're ancient this guy is so old I'm older than dirt you know like now I see like we're at a point where like everyone's got to go for this quick hit and they've got it and everyone has access to PubMed now so everyone wants to be but Nuance is gone because they'll cherry pick some little piece and suddenly become an expert on it and I just would like to hear your take on how that can be detrimental for people that are just trying to lose weight like when they hear just these little bits and pieces uh from various experts yeah it's the human tendency towards tribalism that gives us this tendency to universalize and over generalize our personally preferred approach and so like with something like intermittent fasting and you know anything else like anti-interm fasting like more grazing patterns like people will have a tendency to say this works really well it works really well for me therefore this is what everybody needs to do and I've seen that a lot with intermittent fasting with a lot of the proponents of intermittent fasting saying this is the Holy Grail if everybody can get on board with intermittent fasting all of their problems in life will resolve and I'm thinking well it's not that simple because when you look at the research and you look at especially the current research um early time restricted feeding started gaining momentum with these short-term studies and now we've got this 12-month study done by Lou and colleagues showing that hey it works just as good as daily caloric restriction and the clinical markers of Health no significant differences between daily restriction and early time restricted feeding just match everything except for the timing of the stuff then you go hmm and then there because a lot of the a lot of the fun and sexy findings with intermittent fasting that that are rooted in hypotheses about improving metabolic Health improving autophagy Etc that would be great if if that if there was the evidence for that but as the march of evidence continues we're seeing that intermittent fasting is a viable option and it is an attractive option for people who prefer to eat ad libidum on the days that they on their feeding days because it is a really kind of neat hack to not having to micromanage uh your your intake on a daily sense and and just you know trying to trying to impose this daily deficit so it's really cool in that sense but we have to kind of revert back to the idea that some people are going to do great on it some people are not going to do great on it and we just literally have to go with what the individual responds to best because it's not the best way but it is a viable option so I think that that's kind of the message that when something works really well it might not necessarily work really well for everybody and we it's good to have a bunch of programming options yeah I think you know the tribalism piece you you nailed it with that I mean human nature I think we want to we want to get very dogmatic and tribal about things and nutrition is just a very odd way to do that because it's so individual and it's so diverse and we know so little about it that it's quite candidly it's impossible to be accurately tribal about it but people especially when they have success with something they want to get loud about it and I can understand that right and I've always said when I talk about fasting or when I talk about keto even there's a passion in my voice that is there because it worked for me but I also like to be very clear that it worked for me and that's why I get so excited about it and no amount of hate or trolling can take that away from me it worked for me I'm passionate about it but I don't ever say this is the only way and now the algorithms make it so that someone that doesn't have experience talking to them you and I have experience talking to large groups large audiences which means that being responsible people there's a level of just responsibility that comes what we say what comes out of our mouth like I cannot jump up in front of three and a half million people and say keto is the only way if you don't you're gonna die earlier like that would be grossly irresponsible of me even if and I don't even if I felt that was the true way right it's just that's not a responsible thing to do because I that could not be the way for everybody but when you have people that are given a platform and I don't want to say don't deserve a platform but they're given a platform and they're inexperienced with having that level of visibility the algorithm can serve people that have 5 000 followers similarly to what it will serve people that have 3 million these days so you have you know Joe Blow coming out here that had success with fasting where you have Jill Smith that had success with If It Fits your Macros and they're putting this viral content out there that explodes and it's getting the same amount of shares that someone that has a million followers would get then you have the person on the other side of the equation that's receiving this information that maybe doesn't understand how social media Works especially a you know a baby boomer or someone in their 50s or whatever they're going to see this content and because it's on their feed they're going to take it as literal fact and they're going to take it as the news and as the truth because they don't maybe think about how the fact this is just algorithmically served because it's sensationalized so they see this and they say I saw this lady on Instagram talking about how intermittent fasting is going to make us all die she's got to be right because she was on my feed yeah and people that are Savvy with the internet understand that not to be the case but there's probably more people not Savvy with how the internet really works if it pops up on my Facebook feed my Instagram feed it's got to be the truth and that's what's dangerous is that people that shouldn't be spitting out information are able to spit out false information so I understand how that becomes a problem and all that does is paralyze the good person that's just trying to find that little nugget that they need to lose weight because they want to be able to play with their grandkids yeah yeah and I think it helps for people to know that intermittent fasting is one of many ways to maintain a certain level of caloric balance by the end of the week yes and it's it's a legit way to accomplish it and as long as we can kind of pull back and and I mean a lot of people who have had a lot of success on it I've seen them say this is the superior way to do it it is a superior way to diet and well that's you know that's false per the evidence and as long as we can acknowledge that I think that we're moving in the right direction by saying that okay that's a legit option that's a legit option let's see who works best with what on an individual basis or better yet keep them all as Tools in your toolbox and use them all little bits of time here and there and yeah it works even with the same person like through the course of the year the course of a week well who says you can't intermittent fast on Tuesday eat high carb on Wednesday eat keto on Thursday and Friday like try it all see what works for you as a matter of fact there's you know maybe there's a level of uh success that comes from just constantly doing something different and keeping your mind fresh but yeah yeah and and this is this opens up a whole other can of worms but with athletic performance we're beginning to see that if you can more closely fuel the demands of the given training Ballot or the given competitive ballot you see quite a bit of non-linearity in terms of caloric intake through the week with folks who are trying to economize on their caloric intake so they have to allocate fuel to where it needs to go in a lot more specialized way and sometimes that defaults to significantly lower calorie days on on days where the demands are low so interesting yeah well Alan where can everyone find you man Alan aragon.com and Instagram is the Alan Aragon and oh boy I do I did uh start a tick tock account but I don't even know I don't even know better off without it anyway as always keep it locked into my channel and thanks my man

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